Hrafnar's "African Influence"

[lwood]

I had originally posted this as a response to a "What is Fluffy?" post on badheathens, but it wasn't on-topic for the original post, so I moved it.

---

Hrafnar's "African Influence"

The original commenter, just_sigrun, said:
I find Diana Paxson's "seith" to be highly suspect, because it is influenced from other cultures (African), too.

dpaxson is a good friend of mine. We've been working together for years, up to and including performing the seið rite you question above.

What do you feel is an "African" influence? When this comes up, it is usually with regards to our possessory practice, which is usually encountered by the non-California heathen in the following situation:

During our oracular seiðr rite, a querent may ask a question of a wight (I use that word here in its most generic sense). While we prefer that the answer be relayed through the seer(ess), it may also happen that wight may take possession of the seer(ess) and answer the question directly.

You would be correct in stating that there is no direct evidence of full trance possession in the extant written lore. However, there are several citations that we interpret as indirect evidence that trance possession occurred before the Viking era--a catalog of the best-known citations and some discussion of practice can be found in Kveldulf Gundarsson's essay "Seiðr, Spæcraft, and Shamanism".

However, it is categorically false to state that possession has only, ever, and always, been experienced by the tribes of sub-Saharan West Africa, either before or after their diaspora--the "African" source generally mentioned in this argument. Even a cursory examination shows evidence of possessory rites in Thailand, China, India, and across the circumpolar complex. It is hardly an isolated practice, although I admit in North America one is most likely to hear it associtated with pracitioners of the faiths of the African Diaspora (Vodou, Santeria, Umbanda, et al).

It is also the case--and we have never denied this--that several in our kindred are also members of a local Umbanda House, and have been trained in that system as well as our own. This alliance began nearly twenty years ago, when one of our members--with no Afro-Diasporic experience whatsoever--was possessed by Odin during a non-seið rite. While the experience was overall a positive one for everyone involved, it was also quite surprising for the rite's planners, who had no idea that this was possible with one of the Æsir--but took things in stride when it happened nonetheless.

After that, we thought it wise to learn from people who were familiar with these experiences, so we could deal with what was already happening at home.

In the years since then, we have had a lot of experience with possessory work within the heathen tradition. When this happens without warning, it's a terrifying experience, and we get a certain number of people who are referred to us, or who find us online, because just such a thing has happened to them--again, with or without Afro-Diasporic experience.

Now, the vast majority of heathens in the vast majority of kindreds don't have, want, need, or spontaneously get any experience with these techniques. Trance possession is a marginal area within the already marginal practice of seið--the edge of an edge. Yet, it does happen.

You may not do it, may never, and may never see it--to me, that is immaterial. It happens, and when it does, there are people who know how to deal with it.

Best,

-- Lorrie

Comments

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

Wow.

Thank you for the info.

I appreciate that you explained it to me rather than saying "you're an asshat"... I am into Teh Mystical Woo-Woo quite a bit myself, have never been possessed, but at least I know now it's not necessarily un-Heathen.

Thanx again.

Frith,
Siggy :)

[mordantcarnival.livejournal.com]

I've personally experienced spontaneous full possession by one God, and lighter states such as "overshadowing" by other Gods and sometimes ancestors. We just have Gods who like to party. It's something They seem to do. Regardless of whether some people deem it "unheathen" or "alien," regardless of how many academic references get wheeled out, regardless of how many people are booted out of their communities over the matter, it has happened before and it's going to keep on happening. Looking to the African diasporic faiths for clues as to how we can handle possession when it does occur isn't "unheathen," it's basic commonsense.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

it has happened before and it's going to keep on happening

*taps her nose* dingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingding!

Yeah, that's the very short answer.

When it comes to possessory work, all I have seen so far is an attempt to argue that absence of evidence = evidence of absence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).

-- Lorrie

[emberleo.livejournal.com]

And it's not exactly unlike a Viking to go out into the world in search of useful shinies.

I mean really, what do you think Odin tell you to do about a problem like this? So why be surprised it's what we did?

--Ember--

[lwood.livejournal.com]

I appreciate that you explained it to me rather than saying "you're an asshat".

*laugh* Well, after some years, it finally sunk into me that "you're an asshat!" is just about the least useful response.

If I instead take the time for a more rational reply, it will go much better for me. ;)

I am into Teh Mystical Woo-Woo quite a bit myself, have never been possessed,

Honestly, it's rare that someone has a full-on possession that then needs immediate, urgent care. Still, the likelihood becomes higher the more woowoo is being flung about, and again rises with the prevalence of alcohol.

More prevalent are people who could have spontaneous experiences, but have themselves under some kind of control until some kind of trigger event occurs.

And most prevalent are people who chug along just fine, but then have some experience that suggests that they might want to learn this skill.

but at least I know now it's not necessarily un-Heathen.

*snort* This is an extremely contested topic. scrwtape and I have it out on occasion: he's agin' it, I'm fer it, and neither one of us are terribly mobile in our positions, leaving a broad middle who wishes we would stfu already.

I am always happy to explain anything we do. Please feel free to ask at any time.

You're welcome!

-- Lorrie

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

:)

Feel free to add me. I am adding you.

[wolfs-daugher.livejournal.com]

*laughs* As another member of Hrafnar, Seidhjallr and the (grins)'suspect' afro-diasporic traditions, I would like to comment that we do try not to judge. 'You're and asshat' would be an extremely limited and limiting judgement on someone that we don't know personally.

Besides, generating spirited, knowlegable debate is a lot more fun than throwing rocks.

Sparrow

[lwood.livejournal.com]

You're much nicer than I am, but we knew that. 8-)

-- Lorrie

[wolfs-daugher.livejournal.com]

I thought you were plenty nice, there.

*pats the lwood's hand*

You're learning dear, really *snerk*

*giggles*
Sparrow?

[ravan.livejournal.com]

I can't resist....

If you get possessed by a god, let go, and then it happens again, are you "repossessed"??

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Yes.

8-P

-- Lorrie

[wednesday]

"Look who's back with a brand new exorcist!"

okay yeah wrong paradigm WHATSYERPOINT.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

okay yeah wrong paradigm WHATSYERPOINT.

*holds up her hand* Failed Catholic. Loved that movie! Rock on!

-- Lorrie

[gkingsley.livejournal.com]

You rock.

Now I want a picture of Eshu that says "Im in ur seithr possessing ur gothis."

[lwood.livejournal.com]

*wince*

No!

You get:



...instead. 'cos I already had that on hand.

-- Lorrie

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

ROFLMAO

[wednesday]

But... but... but that compresses down to "Im in ur gothis."

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Which would, if you knew the gent in question, be just like him.

-- Lorrie

[arc-stormcrow.livejournal.com]

No! Don't give her any ideas!

Even if it *is* hillarious. ;)

[abhasana.livejournal.com]

I've been plundering JSTOR like, well, like a Viking and I've found some stuff on possession in Native American traditions (I think. I'll have to go back and look closer.) I thought it might be worth adding to your horde so I was going to fling them in your direction when I had half a chance.

Not that NA trads have any great influence on possessory work in a Heathen setting, but in my own practice I've noticed that the land-wights I deal with are often strongly flavored by NA tribal influences, and I've heard from a lot of people that North American land-wights typically see tobacco as their due. So you can't separate the tradition you're practicing from where you're practicing it; I don't see it impossible that possessory work could have skipped traditions from that direction too, albeit through a not-human route.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

I thought it might be worth adding to your horde so I was going to fling them in your direction when I had half a chance.

Excellent! I have full JSTOR access here at the Mad Scientists' Home, too...

I've heard from a lot of people that North American land-wights typically see tobacco as their due.

Not terribly common here in California; not a lot of tobacco out this way.

I don't see it impossible that possessory work could have skipped traditions from that direction too, albeit through a not-human route.

While I, personally, happen to agree, one does better at swaying heathens if one's experience happens to have footnotes for backup. ;)

The underlying argument seems to be that the possessory experience is universal, or darn near. How each culture deals with the fallout makes all the difference...

-- Lorrie

[witchchild]

I wish this kind of information was a little more out there, if only so people knew it did happen and perhaps others wouldn't automatically dismiss it out of hand because no overt historical/mythical evidence exists that they can see.

Not that I have any experience whatsoever with anything mentioned in this post. *coughs*

[lwood.livejournal.com]

First, this is marginal practice. As in: on the margins. This is not, and should not be mainstream within heathenry. That actually would be unsupported.

As for actual possessory practice, allow me to let Kveldulf have a word, here:

This suggests that such activity is also fitting nowadays in the contexts of ritual/performance for the folk as a whole and requesting information within private groups - when carried out by properly trained people in a state of good psychological stability, with much care and rigorously asserted controls, including such things as making it perfectly clear at the beginning what is and what is not acceptable behaviour for the possessing deity, and afterwards exerting rational consideration of any messages, requests, or orders received.

That is exactly the context we strive to provide. Irresponsible trancework does no one any favors: if Freyja (or whomever) wants to help with your LiveJournal comments, a responsible medium should not do more than let the Lady offer editorial commentary--unless the context permits or a reasonable disclaimer is provided. Moreover, in no wise should any pronouncement of substance be taken as--literally--gospel without the usual confirmations.

Distinction and discipline are critical to the long-term mental health of anyone indulging in mediumistic practice. While there will always be exceptions and emergencies, having too much god in your head for too long is not conducive to mental health.

Mind you, there are people who disagree with me fairly vehemently from the other side, and ask who we are to put limits on gods.

I am human. A child of Ask and Embla, younger kin to the children of Ymir. I am...the list of affirmations isn't terribly relevant, is it?

"Who among you"--a long-haired radical socialist Jew once said--"when your child asks for an egg, would give him a stone?" If a god would lead worth a damn, they would do well to listen--contrariwise, they also have the right to plant a size nine boot in a whiner's ass, who should know the line well between "wah!--ok, I'm going, I'm going" and "no, really, this is inappropriate".

We like to stress the value of negotiation in proper establishment of god relationships. How it works out, obviously, is highly variable, but we do teach it.

-- Lorrie

[murstein.livejournal.com]

I've had a few interesting cyber-conversations on this, and related subjects. I see the core subject the whole notion of cultural purity, which strikes me as the same stream of thought that led to racial purity a few generations ago. There are a few points I've seen others tap-dance around, but not address:

In the well-attested Lore, Odin traveled the Known Multiverse (aka Nine Worlds) in his perpetual quest for wisdom. I cannot see him limiting himself to only the parts of Midgard where Heathens ruled, or just the nine worlds of Heathen myth. However, even if he did, there were the black slaves who were brought back from Mediterranean raids. It's pretty easy for me to imagine Odin checking out the newcomers, just to see if they know something interesting.

Our Heathen forefathers didn't shun religious contamination. Rather, they made a point of bringing home ideas and practices they saw some value in. (An unfortunately large number saw some value in the White Christ, alas.) The did even more to cross-pollinate by taking home thralls, many of whom clung to as much of their birth religions as they could, transmitting as much as they could to their offspring.

And, finally, the one that does the most to tick those folks off. If we could trace our family trees back far enough, they would all be rooted in Africa. Even if the multi-regional hypothesis is correct, that statement stands; it merely pushes the date at which our ancestors left Africa a bit earlier. We're all of African origin, and so are our religions. Some just left home a few thousand years earlier than others.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

I see the core subject the whole notion of cultural purity, which strikes me as the same stream of thought that led to racial purity a few generations ago.

*stage-whispers* And neither of those actually exist.

Which isn't a license to run around throwing things on all willy-nilly, mind you, but none of the reconstructionist paganisms is free of holes.

We are each, therefore, going to find our own spackle with which to patch them.

Now, that said, it makes more sense to patch with spackle from a closer cultural group than a further one: Slavic in one direction, Celtic in another, and so on. But, like I said in the primary article, when this particular practice landed literally in our laps, the closest best tool to hand was African, so that's where we went.

In the well-attested Lore, Odin traveled the Known Multiverse (aka Nine Worlds) in his perpetual quest for wisdom. I cannot see him limiting himself to only the parts of Midgard where Heathens ruled, or just the nine worlds of Heathen myth.

Exactly--but again, one oughtn't use it as carte blanche to throw in any old thing, and we don't. And possession is hardly just an African thing--for just one example, look into the "Vegetarian Festival" in Phuket, Thailand, which makes even most Afro-Diasporan events look fluffy and softcore.

Our Heathen forefathers didn't shun religious contamination. Rather, they made a point of bringing home ideas and practices they saw some value in. (An unfortunately large number saw some value in the White Christ, alas.) The did even more to cross-pollinate by taking home thralls, many of whom clung to as much of their birth religions as they could, transmitting as much as they could to their offspring.

Yup. Again: does it work? Is it useful? If so, great. If not, not. Don't bolt a whistle onto a bathtub because it's pretty, but if it tells you when the water's hot, then it's useful.

. If we could trace our family trees back far enough, they would all be rooted in Africa.

Ohhhhh...you've never run into the place where heathenry meets UFO cults, have you?

See, this gets around that. White folks ain't from Africa ("like those monkey-mud people" may be seen as subtext to this theory). We're descended from the Æsir, who were...

...wait for it...

Aliens from outer space.

Which is why we're so much cooler than everyone else, 'cos they're all monkeys, and we're not.

Why these aliens concocted their precious Aryan white babies to be able to breed with the monkeys I don't know, because that would throw a monkeywrench (ahahaha) into the whole mess.

-- Lorrie