Hrafnar's "African Influence"

[lwood]

I had originally posted this as a response to a "What is Fluffy?" post on badheathens, but it wasn't on-topic for the original post, so I moved it.

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Hrafnar's "African Influence"

The original commenter, just_sigrun, said:
I find Diana Paxson's "seith" to be highly suspect, because it is influenced from other cultures (African), too.

dpaxson is a good friend of mine. We've been working together for years, up to and including performing the seið rite you question above.

What do you feel is an "African" influence? When this comes up, it is usually with regards to our possessory practice, which is usually encountered by the non-California heathen in the following situation:

During our oracular seiðr rite, a querent may ask a question of a wight (I use that word here in its most generic sense). While we prefer that the answer be relayed through the seer(ess), it may also happen that wight may take possession of the seer(ess) and answer the question directly.

You would be correct in stating that there is no direct evidence of full trance possession in the extant written lore. However, there are several citations that we interpret as indirect evidence that trance possession occurred before the Viking era--a catalog of the best-known citations and some discussion of practice can be found in Kveldulf Gundarsson's essay "Seiðr, Spæcraft, and Shamanism".

However, it is categorically false to state that possession has only, ever, and always, been experienced by the tribes of sub-Saharan West Africa, either before or after their diaspora--the "African" source generally mentioned in this argument. Even a cursory examination shows evidence of possessory rites in Thailand, China, India, and across the circumpolar complex. It is hardly an isolated practice, although I admit in North America one is most likely to hear it associtated with pracitioners of the faiths of the African Diaspora (Vodou, Santeria, Umbanda, et al).

It is also the case--and we have never denied this--that several in our kindred are also members of a local Umbanda House, and have been trained in that system as well as our own. This alliance began nearly twenty years ago, when one of our members--with no Afro-Diasporic experience whatsoever--was possessed by Odin during a non-seið rite. While the experience was overall a positive one for everyone involved, it was also quite surprising for the rite's planners, who had no idea that this was possible with one of the Æsir--but took things in stride when it happened nonetheless.

After that, we thought it wise to learn from people who were familiar with these experiences, so we could deal with what was already happening at home.

In the years since then, we have had a lot of experience with possessory work within the heathen tradition. When this happens without warning, it's a terrifying experience, and we get a certain number of people who are referred to us, or who find us online, because just such a thing has happened to them--again, with or without Afro-Diasporic experience.

Now, the vast majority of heathens in the vast majority of kindreds don't have, want, need, or spontaneously get any experience with these techniques. Trance possession is a marginal area within the already marginal practice of seið--the edge of an edge. Yet, it does happen.

You may not do it, may never, and may never see it--to me, that is immaterial. It happens, and when it does, there are people who know how to deal with it.

Best,

-- Lorrie

Comments

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

Wow.

Thank you for the info.

I appreciate that you explained it to me rather than saying "you're an asshat"... I am into Teh Mystical Woo-Woo quite a bit myself, have never been possessed, but at least I know now it's not necessarily un-Heathen.

Thanx again.

Frith,
Siggy :)

[wolfs-daugher.livejournal.com]

*laughs* As another member of Hrafnar, Seidhjallr and the (grins)'suspect' afro-diasporic traditions, I would like to comment that we do try not to judge. 'You're and asshat' would be an extremely limited and limiting judgement on someone that we don't know personally.

Besides, generating spirited, knowlegable debate is a lot more fun than throwing rocks.

Sparrow

[mordantcarnival.livejournal.com]

I've personally experienced spontaneous full possession by one God, and lighter states such as "overshadowing" by other Gods and sometimes ancestors. We just have Gods who like to party. It's something They seem to do. Regardless of whether some people deem it "unheathen" or "alien," regardless of how many academic references get wheeled out, regardless of how many people are booted out of their communities over the matter, it has happened before and it's going to keep on happening. Looking to the African diasporic faiths for clues as to how we can handle possession when it does occur isn't "unheathen," it's basic commonsense.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

I appreciate that you explained it to me rather than saying "you're an asshat".

*laugh* Well, after some years, it finally sunk into me that "you're an asshat!" is just about the least useful response.

If I instead take the time for a more rational reply, it will go much better for me. ;)

I am into Teh Mystical Woo-Woo quite a bit myself, have never been possessed,

Honestly, it's rare that someone has a full-on possession that then needs immediate, urgent care. Still, the likelihood becomes higher the more woowoo is being flung about, and again rises with the prevalence of alcohol.

More prevalent are people who could have spontaneous experiences, but have themselves under some kind of control until some kind of trigger event occurs.

And most prevalent are people who chug along just fine, but then have some experience that suggests that they might want to learn this skill.

but at least I know now it's not necessarily un-Heathen.

*snort* This is an extremely contested topic. scrwtape and I have it out on occasion: he's agin' it, I'm fer it, and neither one of us are terribly mobile in our positions, leaving a broad middle who wishes we would stfu already.

I am always happy to explain anything we do. Please feel free to ask at any time.

You're welcome!

-- Lorrie

[ravan.livejournal.com]

I can't resist....

If you get possessed by a god, let go, and then it happens again, are you "repossessed"??

[lwood.livejournal.com]

You're much nicer than I am, but we knew that. 8-)

-- Lorrie

[wolfs-daugher.livejournal.com]

I thought you were plenty nice, there.

*pats the lwood's hand*

You're learning dear, really *snerk*

*giggles*
Sparrow?

[lwood.livejournal.com]

I thought you were plenty nice, there.

As I said: one keeps the snark en famille. 8-)

-- Lorrie

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Yes.

8-P

-- Lorrie

[lwood.livejournal.com]

it has happened before and it's going to keep on happening

*taps her nose* dingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingding!

Yeah, that's the very short answer.

When it comes to possessory work, all I have seen so far is an attempt to argue that absence of evidence = evidence of absence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).

-- Lorrie

[gkingsley.livejournal.com]

You rock.

Now I want a picture of Eshu that says "Im in ur seithr possessing ur gothis."

[lwood.livejournal.com]

*wince*

No!

You get:



...instead. 'cos I already had that on hand.

-- Lorrie

[mordantcarnival.livejournal.com]

My strong feeling is that possession of this kind becoming more common and will continue to do so at a fair old clip. Now They've got started, I don't really see much stopping Them...

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Worse than that--it seems to be emerging across the reconstructionist paganisms. Kemetic Orthodoxy, having been founded by a Vodou mambo, doesn't count as part of this statement, obviously.

It may be endemic to treating Powers as Persons, rather than as archetypes.

-- Lorrie

[wednesday]

"Look who's back with a brand new exorcist!"

okay yeah wrong paradigm WHATSYERPOINT.

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

:)

Feel free to add me. I am adding you.

[just-sigrun.livejournal.com]

ROFLMAO

[wednesday]

But... but... but that compresses down to "Im in ur gothis."

[lwood.livejournal.com]

okay yeah wrong paradigm WHATSYERPOINT.

*holds up her hand* Failed Catholic. Loved that movie! Rock on!

-- Lorrie

[wednesday]

*hornthrowing!*

Twice-failed charismatic-skewed Evangelical Protestant, frequent group exorcism victim. Catholics get way cooler cinematic demon asskicking.

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Which would, if you knew the gent in question, be just like him.

-- Lorrie

[wednesday]

Hee. My metaphorical crashpad gets a different set of guests, I'm afraid, so I confess nonfamiliarity with the gentleman.

(Brain is still over here in "streamlining redundant markup" mode; will be there for several more hours.)

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Nobody does the bell, book, and candle routine like the Roman Catholics.

Unless it's the Orthodox.

But really, when you chuck out the performance values, you chuck out a lot of the stuff that helps things Mean Something to the unconscious--wouldn't you rather have that on your side? I would!

-- Lorrie

[lwood.livejournal.com]

He's one of those "goes everywhere, screws up your shit 'cos it's fun, then runs off" types.

-- Lorrie

[wednesday]

Understood.